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firescout555
11-09-2006, 03:18 AM
Armor combat guide ver 1.2

Note: this guide is really just to help you fight properly in armor and in no way help you improve your armor whoring skill.

Introduction
Armor is one of the main elements in winning the war, whether in history or in modern warfare. The future has accepted that armor is still one of the main driving forces of winning the war. Hence this guide is just to help you how to use this powerful weapon efficiently.

Your rides:
APC
This vehicle comes equipped with an automatic gun and an EMP grenade on the driver seat, a grenade launcher that fires a burst of 3 grenades in the gunner seat and the passenger seat only has an automatic gun and the ability launch itself out of the vehicle. Not really suitable for armor to armor combat. All rounded armor but weak spots at the bottom

Tanks
Range has become a primary concern since the some of the maps you will be playing is huge. So the tanks have traded their side cannon for a scope for long range sniping, the gunner seat still have their trusty old (or you can say a more refined) automatic gun against infantries. However, a newer tank design has being put in place to pit against traditional tank design (which will be covered later). Weak spots are at the back.

Battle Walkers
A new vehicle with weapons equivalent to that of the attack helicopter, the protection of a tank and the movement of an infantry. This vehicle has an added advantage of being higher than other vehicle, which allows them to see more, even in low terrain. Even though it has being written on the little booklet when you buy the game, you can actually run by pressing the sprint button or you can crouch on the walker with the Z button. Weak spots are at the lower half of the walkers with critical areas at the bum holes

Your roles (prioritize in order of importance)
1. Engage other armor; the main weapon of armors is designed to be use against other armor. It just makes no sense that you don’t engage other armor because the infantry over there looks easier to pwn than that guy in armor.
2. Support your lowly but important infantries, infantries are small (duh!!!) but can cap flags more efficiently than armor. supporting them gives you kills and makes it easier for your allies to cap flags
3. Defend your base, some base have exclusive spawn point for certain vehicles. So you lose the base, you lose a chance to get these vehicles

Your class
It is best for you to go engineer as the engineer’s ability to repair proved invaluable in armor combat. Whether you want to equip heavy armor or not is up to you.

Basic know-how
• Enter your armor with your repair kit out, that way you can fix them the moment you bail out of your tank.
• Armor should not stay in one position for long since your just making it easier for other armor to own you.
• One way to repair yourself is to keep moving as you repair your armor, remember to retreat back to a safe place when you repair your armor
• Don’t bother to cap flags, you are just making it easier for others to pwn you
• Explosive are premium item, but that doesn’t warrant you to use armor to go destroy commander asset.
• Know when to retreat as destroyed armor is a hindrance to the team. It is also much better if you retreat and come back ready to get back to them for the damage they done to you.

Tank comparison (The Tiger versus The Cat)
Traditional tanks
Pros:
• Easy to use for everyone
• Have traction over uneven terrain
• Turrets can swivel 360*
• Higher firepower

Cons:
• Slow
• Hard to present frontal armor against other armor
• Not as flexible as the hover tank

Hover tank
Pros:
• Extremely flexible
• Fast
• Easy to present frontal armor against other armor (e.g. strafing)

Cons:
• Difficult to use for newcomers
• No traction on uneven terrain
• Turrets cannot swivel 360*
• Lower firepower

Battle Walker Flexibility
The flexibility of the walker is often underused, so this point will help you how to use your walker to its full potential.
Steep Hills
Battle Walkers can walk up steep hills with ease, much better than what an infantry would do; however, walking down hills is rather tricky as the walker will really ‘fall’ (slid) down hills, giving you a huge chunk of damage…

Water
All armors have a phobia of water, even APCs. But battle walkers can ford through any watery bodies. Walking through water gives you some advantage over the other armor:
• You can get to one place faster then the other armors
• They will not be expecting armor will pass through watery area, giving you an advantage in combat.
• If they are stupid enough, they might follow you to the river if the river is of the same color as the surrounding area.
Here are some screenshots for you see that walkers can ford rivers without taking damage:

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9683/screen001ec9.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen001ec9.jpg)
in 1st person view...
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2645/screen002fl4.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screen002fl4.jpg)
in 3rd person view...

If you know how to use an armor vehicle properly, here are some tips being aware on your environment:
• All armor needs momentum to cross rough terrain, this holds especially true for hover tank as they don’t have traction to gripe on to the terrain.
• If you have no choice but to cap a flag, ask for UAV over the flag. You never know how many people are hiding in there. Another method is that you can position your weak spots over some cover while capping flag so as to prevent them from finishing you off faster.
• If you want to camp on a spot, it is best if you can ask for supply at your position. The winner of armor combat is the one who can keep himself alive and thoroughly supplied.
• Anti vehicle turrets are dangerously powerful, so be on a lookout for them and if you must. Destroy them to avoid being used by the enemy
• Be careful of any FAVs heading towards you as it is most likely a recon trying to FAV bomb you.
• If in doubt, use your scope to scan for enemy.
• It has being emphasized before and I would say again, if you take too much damage you should retreat and repair so you can get back to them.

Advice for infantry
• Do not stand behind any moving armor; these guys have a nasty habit of reversing when they got hit by something. Don’t even bother standing close to a hover tank; the reason should be obvious to you by now.
• Do not steal armor from your allies while they are repairing their armor!!! It not only irritates them, it also makes them want to TK you. If you have an insatiable urge to steal, go steal the armor “form the other side”, gives you more challenge that way.

Armor versus…
Engineer
Engineers now comes with AV (anti-vehicular) missiles, they are fast and small while you are slow. Unless you are going 1 on 1 with them, fighting a group of them is hell frozen over for you. If you want to fight with them go long range, you can see their missile flight path and your splash damage can hurt them. If you cannot determined where their shots came from, you can always change your view to a 3rd person view to see where they fired their shots.

Recon
Assume that they have RDX and active camo equipped, they are gonna hurt you more than what you can think of. Be on the lookout for these people.

Other classes
They are going to run away and spot you, so just kill them off with your splash damage. However, if you are using a walker against them, be on a lookout for as they have a nasty habit of going under you and shoot up your bum holes with whatever they have.

Turrets
They are one dangerous piece of equipment to begin with. Destroy them if you want to cap a flag.

Mines
Mines are going to be a bit harder to see from armor’s point of view; they looked like little pebbles on the road. However EMP mines is slightly easier to see from there, use a defuse kit if you have unlock them to defuse the mines. Otherwise, avoid them altogether. Should you got lock on by the mines; try not to reverse/move too fast. Their damage is determined not only by the speed in which you travel, it is also determined by the distance you are away from the mine when they start advancing towards you,

Aircraft
DICE have made their aircraft such that it is both fast and flexible. This equals to that you have lesser chance to survive an aircraft attacking run if the pilot is skilled enough. Don’t bother to use your main weapons against them; you can only reach to a certain height. The exception would be the gunners on the battle walkers; they have auto locking missiles and very powerful cannon that can be also used against infantries.

FAVs
Destroy them if they are heading in your way; show them that it takes more than just a tiny little RDX-strapped FAVs to stop you. If it is too close, you should try to move away from the FAVs.

Armor versus Armor
Tank against Tank
Assume that both tanks are fighting head-on with full health; the winner is the one who strike first or can block the damage using AD (active defense) effectively. Otherwise you can strike its weak spot.

Tank against APC
This battle is really in your favor, the only problem you should look out for is its EMP grenades. Not only does it stunt you, it also makes it easier for the enemy engineer to take you out.

Tank against Battle Walker
This battle is not in your favor in close quarter as the elevated height of the battle walker means that they can see slightly more than what the tanks can see; this means that they have a bigger target surface to shoot at. Engage them at long range using your scope and try to aim at the lower portion of the walkers. Another weakness they have is that their guns and missiles gets heated up very fast, use that to your advantage. If possible you can get behind the walker as the walker is rather slow at reversing, either forcing them to turn their legs towards you or keep reversing on you

APC against Armor
APCs have some of the weakest weapons in the game, if you ever get caught in an armor combat. Use your EMP grenade to get yourself out of the situation; your weapons can only scratch their paintwork. If you feel like it you can always try to swap seats and use the gunner’s grenade on them. Another way is to drive pass the vehicle, emp it, hop out and then hit it with your AV weapons.

Battle Walker against Tank
Your main weakness is your speed and your guns and missiles gets heated up very fast, but to make it all up you are extremely flexible, use this to dodge tank fire and if you can’t, turn on active defense and run (not walk) towards them.

Battle Walker against APC
Same logic as the tank versus APCs.

Battle Walker against Battle Walker
This battle can be won through attrition (wearing down the enemy). Since both of you are very flexible and your guns and missiles heats up quickly, the possibility of you getting all shots to land on the walker is low. So take your time, fire in burst and use AD occasionally to block missile attacks.

Active Defense
Active Defense is a replacement for smoke grenades in BF2, replacing cover for protection against hard hitting rounds. It works by nullifying any missiles and tank rounds heading towards you. Last roughly about 4 seconds (need confirmation)
However, active defense does not work on small arms fire, grenades, artilleries and RDX.

Copied from Thy-tormenter; who gave an excellent tip on using active defense in armor combat.

Head-on tank versus tank -combat:

Small details will provide you an huge advantage. Measure tank's reloading interval. This information will make it easier to estimate when it would fire it's next shot, thus you can (if need be) active your defenses at the most appropriate time. The one getting the first shot has the advantage, the one to activate the defenses first has disadvantage. Suck it up, don't active it in panic if you get a scratch, wear down your enemy, and after he actives the defense, estimate his next cannon fire, active your camo, and he will be defenseless. Score the free hit, and then retreat to reload your weapon, and defenses.

Head on Walker versus tank -combat:

Considering that you are in the walker, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, if you only have one tank to take care of. Best way is to get as close as possible, and run around your target. First, fire only one or two missiles at the tank. This will act as a semi-decoy to make he activate his defences, which also seal his fate. After the shields go down, congratilations, it's all yours, fire your missiles, activate defence, wait for the missiles to cool down, then fire all four, and tank is dead. Same goes for the APC, but never get too close. There might be a team inside, where the driver EMPS you, and another jumps out to pilum you at your weak spot. It is perfectly possible to destroy a tank without getting hit at all.

Head on Walker versus Walker -combat:

This is a tricky subject for many people. The one to FIRST fire all the missiles has a great advantage in the overall combat. Fire all four at the enemy, and make sure he activates his defences before you. You can't wait too long, because the missiles do a lot of damage since your fie will be sure to retaliate. Before you get hit by the counter attack, activate your shields. He will be defenceless for a few seconds, where you have your chance to deliver the killing blow.


Tanks versus walkers in general.

Retreat. Walkers can cannon fodder at long range engagement, but should you get caught in close combat, walker will run over you. Don't try to challenge it unless it's already damaged. A skilled walker can take out even three tanks at once on the open. I can't stress enough the importance of retreat.


Inspired by these web site:
http://wiki.bf2s.com/tactical-guides/armor-tactics

Credits to:
Phenomenomenenon for pointing out the flexibility of the battle walker
Gundamfan for pointing out the dangers of walking down steep cliffs
Deadeye313 for a tip in APC combat
[MOX] Darumar for a tip in capping flags
JohnnyDingo for a tip in armor vs. engineer
Tactic365 for a tip armor vs. infantry and motion mines
sonicpixel for firepower comparison of the tiger and neko and comfirmation of motion mines damage
Thy-tormenter for use of active defence in armor combat
Bullseye for a tip in tank vs.walker

Phenomenomenon
11-10-2006, 08:05 PM
Nice guide.

I would only like to add that walkers are capable of traversing extremely steep inclines and hills. You can use this for escape or to gain cover or a height advantage over your enemy.

gundamfan
11-10-2006, 11:46 PM
Thanks, nice guide.

I walked down a very steep cliff on Shuhia Taiba with my walker, and it quickly took damage and exploded. Watch out for steep cliffs.

Deadeye313
11-11-2006, 12:31 AM
Here's a tip for APC vs Armor:

If you're an engineer, drive straight at the enemy tank and emp it just before you pass it. Get behind him while he's stunned, jump out and hit him with your missile or pilum. Use your active defense shield to protect you so you don't take too much damage from the one main gun shot he'll get off before you hit him.

I've done this many times and it's never boring.

firescout555
11-13-2006, 03:25 AM
thx guys for trying to help chip in some more stuff into my guide. but i got 1 challenge for you guys: try tipping a walker(no, seriously) and tell me how it can be done:D (i got tipped once and have tipped another using a tank but im not sure how it can done...:p )

Buttoneer
11-13-2006, 02:05 PM
APC against Armor
APCs have some of the weakest weapons in the game, if you ever get caught in an armor combat. Use your EMP grenade to get yourself out of the situation; your weapons can only scratch their paintwork. If you feel like it you can always try to swap seats and use the gunner’s grenade on them


I've got to ask: why are you alone in an APC anyway? Shouldn't the #1 tip for all armour be to make sure you get fully staffed or at least, in the case of the APC, the two main weapons points staffed? A tank is great on it's own, but a tank with a turret gunner keeping those sneaky rocket-launching infantry men at bay is much more survivable.

firescout555
11-14-2006, 02:55 AM
I've got to ask: why are you alone in an APC anyway? Shouldn't the #1 tip for all armour be to make sure you get fully staffed or at least, in the case of the APC, the two main weapons points staffed? A tank is great on it's own, but a tank with a turret gunner keeping those sneaky rocket-launching infantry men at bay is much more survivable.

http://www.totalbf2142.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9925

this link should be tell you why some people don't like a gunner on their vehicle...
APCs have a limited view area on the passenger seats(this holds more on the PAC's APCs) and they(APCs) usually serve two functions: a anti infantry platform and a means to throw people on top of titans, hence you don't usually see more than 2 people on APCs...
hope this answers your question....:D

Buttoneer
11-14-2006, 11:10 AM
That's a fair complaint, but it's not a good reason for driving off without a fully staffed vehicle. In fact, wouldn't including Bommandos point make it a better guide? Otherwise it appears you are intending this as a guide for lone wolves.

firescout555
11-15-2006, 12:22 AM
That's a fair complaint, but it's not a good reason for driving off without a fully staffed vehicle. In fact, wouldn't including Bommandos point make it a better guide? Otherwise it appears you are intending this as a guide for lone wolves.

i got your point, apply this skill to helping your teammates proved invaluable in a squad. i go as a squad leader, give orders in armor and help cap silos and letting them cap silos while i watch over them. a neat trick to get alot of SL sucess point if they follow your orders

Your roles (prioritize in order of importance)
2. Support your lowly but important infantries, infantries are small (duh!!!) but can cap flags more efficiently than armor. supporting them gives you kills and makes it easier for your allies to cap flags.

from your previous post i believed that the driver get more point than the gunner hence it is rare for tank drivers to come with gunner

firescout555
11-19-2006, 10:15 AM
alrite guys i've just upload sum new stuff for the tread and it is as follow:
versionlise the tread to 1.0
update it to version 1.1
add in some new stuff(about battle walkers...)
add in credits

feel free to chip in to this tread...

LECHIP
11-19-2006, 01:32 PM
AWESOME guide mate, cheers.

mac|Fodder
11-21-2006, 04:25 AM
good guide, i hadn't been able to dig up a PAC vs EU tank damage figures ie. damage/splash for each tank.

given the usual debate of neko vs tiger, is the tiger's main gun more powerful vs neko etc?

[MoX] Darumar
11-21-2006, 12:36 PM
Just one addition, mostly to silo capping, but should also be utilized where possible. When capping a silo, position your tank with it's back against the silo. This will shield your vulnable behind and make sure you won't get one shotted.

Col.Krust
11-21-2006, 05:45 PM
and guarantee a det pack up your backside.....hover tanks are very susceptable to the cloaked jihadist.

JohnnyDingo
11-22-2006, 05:22 PM
Tip for Armor vs. Engineer:

Getting hit with AVR from an engineer and having a hard time finding him? Don't forget that you can switch to 3rd person view with "c". This gives you a much wider field of view which can make finding him a lot easier.

Edit: You might also see where his rocket came from.

tactic356
12-02-2006, 04:37 AM
some things to add. support can do somewhat a lot of damage if they get under you and can shoot your vents. always be aware of whats under you. if and engine can get a clean shot at the vents your dead in one shot. most non-noobs will try to get under you or run away if they are support. if they are recon with rdx they will try to get under you and blow you up. engines will either do a few things. place mines by you so you get blown by them attack u with rockets from afar or get under you and take a shot at the vents. assualt may be able to get a rocket at you but its almost useless unless they can hit on the waist. then still it does little damage (ive killed with assualt by hitting a walker in the waist once). if you find yourself in armor under attack by a band of engines try moving back and forth while you are shooting at them so most of the rockets miss. if there is anyone under you press your crouch button which i think is c (they changed it so its the regular crouch for infantry instead of lying down for infantry) and you should hear a smushing sound. if you are really really desprate and you have someone in the gunner part get out and kill them. if you dont have someone in the gunner part and you get out someone from the other team will steal.

mrsnype
12-04-2006, 09:41 AM
excellent guide. Thanks

193d DCAT1
12-06-2006, 12:55 PM
One addition - the active shield will protect you from motion mines.

tactic356
12-07-2006, 02:18 AM
dunno if someone said this but move slower through motion mines and you will get less damage.

SonicPixel
12-07-2006, 06:43 PM
given the usual debate of neko vs tiger, is the tiger's main gun more powerful vs neko etc?

Yes, the Tiger's main gun is more powerful than the Nekomata's. However, the Nekomata is much more nimble. Careful use of the shield pared with circle strafing will take down a Tiger. Also, if your in a Neko, attempt to engage the Tiger at a longer distance to get a few rounds into him before closing the gap.

A good strat is to always travel with two Nekos working together.

SonicPixel
12-07-2006, 06:51 PM
dunno if someone said this but move slower through motion mines and you will get less damage.

Correct. The damage inflicted by Motion Mines is proportional to their velocity. Thus, the faster they are travelling, the better for the mine layer, the worse for the victim.

You'll get more kills by NOT putting the Motion Mines in the cap zone, but hiding them in key Avenues Of Approach (AOA) to the flag. Most vehicles don't (or shouldn't) rush in to cap a flag, but they'll hang back and shell it before coming in. This is when you want your mines to catch up with them and blast 'em. The ideal distance to put them from the flag is probably close to 100m from flag because the OPP vehicles will be travelling at speed that far out and will slow or stop about 50-75m out. By that time, the Motion Mines are really haulin' tail!

tactic356
12-07-2006, 08:23 PM
also to catch those little cars use emps near them. so it slows them down

Thy-Tormentor
12-08-2006, 11:26 AM
I would like to contribute my words into the great compilation as well. This is about the use of active defence, which usually defines the winner.

In...

Head-on tank versus tank -combat:

Small details will provide you an huge advantage. Measure tank's reloading interval. This information will make it easier to estimate when it would fire it's next shot, thus you can (if need be) active your defenses at the most appropriate time. The one getting the first shot has the advantage, the one to activate the defenses first has disadvantage. Suck it up, don't active it in panic if you get a scratch, wear down your enemy, and after he actives the defense, estimate his next cannon fire, active your camo, and he will be defenseless. Score the free hit, and then retreat to reload your weapon, and defenses.

Head on Walker versus tank -combat:

Considering that you are in the walker, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, if you only have one tank to take care of. Best way is to get as close as possible, and run around your target. First, fire only one or two missiles at the tank. This will act as a semi-decoy to make he activate his defences, which also seal his fate. After the shields go down, congratilations, it's all yours, fire your missiles, activate defence, wait for the missiles to cool down, then fire all four, and tank is dead. Same goes for the APC, but never get too close. There might be a team inside, where the driver EMPS you, and another jumps out to pilum you at your weak spot. It is perfectly possible to destroy a tank without getting hit at all.

Head on Walker versus Walker -combat:

This is a tricky subject for many people. The one to FIRST fire all the missiles has a great advantage in the overall combat. Fire all four at the enemy, and make sure he activates his defences before you. You can't wait too long, because the missiles do a lot of damage since your fie will be sure to retaliate. Before you get hit by the counter attack, activate your shields. He will be defenceless for a few seconds, where you have your chance to deliver the killing blow.


Tanks versus walkers in general.

Retreat. Walkers can cannon fodder at long range engagement, but should you get caught in close combat, walker will run over you. Don't try to challenge it unless it's already damaged. A skilled walker can take out even three tanks at once on the open. I can't stress enough the importance of retreat.

Bllsy
12-08-2006, 12:59 PM
in a nekomata(the hover tank) vs a walker, activeta shields and try to get behind him, its actualy very easy to do with the nekomata, works almost all the time if im not damaged:D

tactic356
12-08-2006, 01:35 PM
if your engine tank vs walker fire a shot at him go to a safe spot and get out shoot him down with your pilum (that youve unlocked) or drive the tank really close with sheild up get out and shoot his fart vents

Kapukluk
12-11-2006, 04:12 AM
Yeah, this topic sums up on how to survive and kill efficiently. Much appreciated.

dontlookback
12-11-2006, 06:53 AM
laugh out loud

tactic356
12-12-2006, 03:01 AM
lol???

firescout555
12-12-2006, 04:02 AM
One addition - the active shield will protect you from motion mines.

can anybody comfirm with that???

if your engine tank vs walker fire a shot at him go to a safe spot and get out shoot him down with your pilum (that youve unlocked) or drive the tank really close with sheild up get out and shoot his fart vents

im not so sure about that point you are trying to make, like why you are trying to get to a safe spot and fire a AV weapon...

aniways, i have updated you guy more on my armor combat guide and it is as follow:
update it to version 1.2
add in even more stuff(the ones you guys chip in)
add in credits

once again i thank you guys for making my guide more knowledgable and useful

Buttoneer
12-13-2006, 10:17 AM
Any tips for combat against people holed up in rail gun turrets?

firescout555
12-13-2006, 01:57 PM
the main idea is that you destroy them so they wouldn't be used against you. in other words, you pre-emp strike them. if it can't be done, use your armor splash damage to kill the occupant since they are exposed on their left side and any damage to there gurentees a hit.

hope this might help...:D

Buttoneer
12-13-2006, 02:59 PM
That's a neat trick - I always go for a head on hit using a tank as they don't have EMP ability. I'll try the splash damage trick.

Trippet
12-13-2006, 04:55 PM
Can anyone confirm for us what vehicles' Active Defense is effective against?

Assumed:
Tank cannon rounds
Walker driver missiles
Walker AA EMP missiles
Gunship driver rockets
Gunship gunner TV missile
Engineer rocket/SAAW

Less obvious (possibly N/A 'cause they don't even scratch the paint):
Walker driver guns?
Walker AA guns?
APC driver guns?
APC EMP gun?
Gunship gunner guns?
Railgun?
Ground AA turret?
Pilum?
Titan guns?
Titan AA?

Thanks,
Trippet - armor rookie

tactic356
12-14-2006, 12:11 AM
i remeber i hit a transport helecopter in the air with a pilum (so hard) when they had active defence up. it went through if i remeber right.

firescout555
12-14-2006, 06:50 AM
Can anyone confirm for us what vehicles' Active Defense is effective against?

Assumed:
Tank cannon rounds
Walker driver missiles
Walker AA EMP missiles
Gunship driver rockets
Gunship gunner TV missile
Engineer rocket/SAAW

Less obvious (possibly N/A 'cause they don't even scratch the paint):
Walker driver guns?
Walker AA guns?
APC driver guns?
APC EMP gun?
Gunship gunner guns?
Railgun?
Ground AA turret?
Pilum?
Titan guns?
Titan AA?

Thanks,
Trippet - armor rookie

Active Defense's effectiveness to the following weapons:

Tank cannon rounds- effective
Walker driver missiles- effective
Walker AA EMP missiles- not effective, it not only destroys Active Defense, it also disables vehicles
Gunship driver rockets- effective
Gunship gunner TV missile- not tested but believed to be effective
Engineer rocket/SAAW- effective
Walker driver guns?- not effective
Walker AA guns?- not effective
APC driver guns?- not effective
APC EMP gun?- not effective
Gunship gunner guns?- not effective
Railgun?- effective
Ground AA turret?- not tested yet but believed to be in effective
Pilum?- effective
Titan guns?- not effective
Titan AA?- not effective

from all of these results, i believed that small caliber firearms can pass through with ease even though it does not hurt them and larger rounds cannot pass through these active defense with the exception of artillary and titan guns

GIJLowe
12-14-2006, 07:03 AM
so basically, if you have active defense up, nothing can really hurt you except an EMP.

Trippet
12-14-2006, 02:08 PM
cool, thanks firescout.

Glacial
12-14-2006, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the update. I have not used my Pilum against vehicles with active defenses up but now I know now to try it.