Issue with the PAC Gunship. Bug? [Archive]

Mazchi

01-22-2007, 09:58 PM

This is really bothering me.
When flying the PAC gunship and firing at another aircraft the missiles seem to go straight thru, and the enemy aircraft isnt taking any damage.
I have noticed this serveral times, to day, yesterday and almost everyday Im flying that gunship.
Kinda frustrating to fire 10 missiles and see all of them pass thru the enemy, hell, even if just one misses I get pissed.

Have anyone else noticed this?

Can add that I have played both PAC and EU 5 full titan rounds tonight and this only happens with the PAC Gunship, every round, while the EU one is just the way its supposed to be.

Deesies

01-22-2007, 10:01 PM

yes, the EY gunship has weird hitboxes making them almost impossible to hit with the PAC missiles.

It's a bug and one I can only hope is fixed in the next patch.

Mazchi

01-22-2007, 10:04 PM

yes, the EY gunship has weird hitboxes making them almost impossible to hit with the PAC missiles.

It's a bug and one I can only hope is fixed in the next patch.

Yeah, almost impossible to hit, but I think it applies to the air transport aswell, cos the missiles seem to pass thru them aswell. Not as ofter as the gunship thou.

Armada

01-22-2007, 10:10 PM

Yes I noticed this too. The other day I had a EU transport 50m away in front of me, he was not moving and I shot all 10 missiles right towards him and NONE of them hit it IT WASN'T EVEN MOVING DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SkyRaptor(RUS)

01-22-2007, 11:31 PM

THis bug made me today veeeeery angry

SkyRaptor(RUS)

01-22-2007, 11:31 PM

However this bug is online ONLINE. when you play with bots - TALON takes normal damage

RYKUU

01-23-2007, 12:05 AM

i ahve never noticed this i use the gunsip all the time and i dont find any problems

Essenshizer

01-23-2007, 12:25 AM

Talon is better in every way possible just about. PAC gunship (doragon) sucks. If you find yourself having the jump on a Talon, try to shoot from slightly below, or slightly above--works much better.

Kraxis

01-23-2007, 02:33 AM

Talon is better in every way possible just about. PAC gunship (doragon) sucks.

I don't know about that. The Doragon's gun is way better, with plenty splash while the Talon's gun is not really anything to write home about. But that of coruse can't compare to the Doragon's tail sticking out of the shield and the Talon having a much more secure hitbox.

VTEC

01-23-2007, 05:05 AM

PAC gunship missles don't track as well as the Talon's. :(

kamikaze cow

01-23-2007, 05:33 AM

well, seeing as how the never fixed the j10 or the f35 hit boxes, i wouldnt get my hopes up for a patch...

KBH33

01-23-2007, 05:51 AM

Hmmmm didn't really know about this, I just thought my gunship aimming was bad =a=

WarGimp

01-23-2007, 06:18 AM

I've noticed pass-though and mis-tracking from and against both gunships... but I can't really say that it's worse for one or the other. I'm not saying I don't believe this could be an issue... but I can say I've owned the sky in the Doragen just fine.

Vikaman

01-23-2007, 06:55 AM

Only 3 factors can affect missiles missing.

1. Lag
2. hitboxes
3. the player sux

I fall under 3.

WarGimp

01-23-2007, 07:12 AM

Hehe.
If ya can't take a shot at yourself, you can't take a shot at anyone.
Hey man, nice shot!

There is another factor in this, though.
Missile tracking logic. It does seem that sometimes those missile just refuse to lock onto a gunship until after they've passed it. This is why I try to assume that the missiles aren't going to tack at all and just line 'em up as dumbfire weapons. If stray shots are corrected by tracking, great. If not, I'm gonna get my hits in anyway.

SkyRaptor(RUS)

01-23-2007, 07:32 AM

Talon is better in every way possible just about. PAC gunship (doragon) sucks. If you find yourself having the jump on a Talon, try to shoot from slightly below, or slightly above--works much better.

No way man! THats just your IMHO. DOragon and Talon are almost the same. I love doragon. Much more advance gunship than that old EU junk:laugh: :D :laugh: :rolleyes:
I for me its controls and abilities are much better

Vikaman

01-23-2007, 09:00 AM

Doragon looks nice, but they seem the same to me.

Keep it that way. We dont want more J10 like whoring.

SkyRaptor(RUS)

01-23-2007, 03:46 PM

Doragon looks nice, but they seem the same to me.

Keep it that way. We dont want more J10 like whoring.

They work 100% the same. Doragon design is much more advance.

TALON looks like Commanche without propeller..:laugh:
DORAGON - like ka-50 and Mi-28 gybrid without propellers:rolleyes:

[DICE]Myr4n

01-23-2007, 05:00 PM

Hey guys,
We took a quick peek at the property of the missiles and they are exactly same on both gunships.

Kraxis

01-23-2007, 05:02 PM

Myr4n;241398']Hey guys,
We took a quick peek at the property of the missiles and they are exactly same on both gunships.

Well that confims my suspicions ever since I stole a Talon and engaged another Talon with it. It was the same as doing it with the Doragon.
Thanks.

But what is your stance on the hitboxes?

th3st1ck

01-23-2007, 10:35 PM

yea, thats why i always try to play EU when i want to whore the gunship
xD

but i hope its fixed soon, cause its annoying that the PAC gunship cant hit crap

CarbonFire

01-23-2007, 10:54 PM

Myr4n;241398']Hey guys,
We took a quick peek at the property of the missiles and they are exactly same on both gunships.Yeah, I'm not sure what everyone has been harping on the missles. Its the hitboxes that are the issue. The Talon has odd hitboxes that seem to almost deflect missles, while the missles track just fine against the Doragon. This is especially apparent in high speed dogfighting.

If I'm shooting a Doragon, I can lead my target and the missles connect. If I'm shooting a Talon, I HAVE to wait for the gunship to be inline with my missles, otherwise they seem to "bug out" right when they reach the hitbox of the Talon.

Very annoying, especially because I prefer the Doragon's handling and its smaller profile when flying close to obstacles.

VTEC

01-23-2007, 11:20 PM

There's definitely an imbalance here, the Doragon missle's steer away from the Talon unless it's a straight shot. Using the Talon, it's easy to lead the enemy gunship for quick kills.

Since Dice confirms the missle properties are the same, there must be something with the EU gunship?

Spl1nter

01-23-2007, 11:33 PM

Myr4n;241398']Hey guys,
We took a quick peek at the property of the missiles and they are exactly same on both gunships.

Guys shut up about the hit boxes its not the hit boxes. And its not the missiles either. It that talon.

And the reason is the engines. Yes the engines. The way they are set up and the exhaust comes out causes for the missiles to go downwards.

Reason it doesnt happen on the pac gunship is because the jet plume is smaller and the jets are attached right on to the gunship. While the EU gunship the jets move and that changes the angle of the jet plume to move.

So if you have ever fired the missiles you will see that they curve down at the last second. At a close up they curve towards the end of the jet plume on the talon.

So that should help you boys at DICE. Thank 22CW for that find. We flyboys take our equality seriously, since we can only fly the pac gunship on our side.

MrChris_CJ

01-23-2007, 11:38 PM

Spl1nter

01-23-2007, 11:49 PM

it is a known fact that the doragon is much easier to shoot down than the talon, unless ur on a crap server which ive noticed makes it worse

to shoot the talon down u have to hit it from the sides, above + below at nice straight angles or if ur very lucky from behind

the talon imo is also much more movable than the doragon which i personally hate

yes thank you so much for stating the obvious that has already taken up 2 full pages of space on these forums.

on topic: I think this is a quick and easy fix and will come with the next patch. hopefully its tested well so its not over done like some bf2 patches....aa

jackal22

01-24-2007, 12:02 AM

Spl1nter

01-24-2007, 12:28 AM

i quite like it the way it is, pac gunship with rape the ground liek no tommorow with a decent crew, and the eu gunship with screw over the pac gunship.

then there are always rammers to take out the tallons so every ones happy.

do you know what you are talking about. The gunships are even pretty much ground wise. Both t.v missiles fire the same. and both gunner machine guns do almost the exact same. The pac gunship is a bit more maneuverable but the eu has a faster acceleration I'm pretty sure.

Also even if such a thing was so, the EU gunship would be still superior as the pac gunship couldnt fly without being shot down so easily.

Myself I like the challenge of shooting down the EU gunship. But still its unfair and should be made so both gunships are the same.

I already posted why this happens, and personally I feel this inequality is ruining competitive play. You dont have to be 'uber' to take down someone in a pac gunship while you need skills to do the oppisite.

Kraxis

01-24-2007, 02:45 AM

Guys shut up about the hit boxes its not the hit boxes. And its not the missiles either. It that talon.

And the reason is the engines. Yes the engines. The way they are set up and the exhaust comes out causes for the missiles to go downwards.

Reason it doesnt happen on the pac gunship is because the jet plume is smaller and the jets are attached right on to the gunship. While the EU gunship the jets move and that changes the angle of the jet plume to move.

So if you have ever fired the missiles you will see that they curve down at the last second. At a close up they curve towards the end of the jet plume on the talon.

Now where does the oddly placed hitboxes we are talking about differ from what you say. You say "it is the engines' placement" and we say "it is the hitboxes' placement"... Well, I can't really see where it differs.
One can argue that the Talon is not bugged, since the rockets do work and they do track the hitboxes perfectly. The hitboxes would thus not be bugged themselves. But their position is what is wrong, and at the core ofthe problem it truly comes down to the hitboxes.
On the Talon they will often not have anything behind them, meaning the rockets will pass by harmlessly, on the Doragon not so.

One could say that Dice, by creating a complicated system for registering a hit, a system that works very well, created a problem a simple 'paint target' system (like in the Comanche games) never would have suffered from. They are hurt by their own success.

ThirtyOughtSix

01-24-2007, 02:59 AM

Yeah, I'm not sure what everyone has been harping on the missles. Its the hitboxes that are the issue. The Talon has odd hitboxes that seem to almost deflect missles, while the missles track just fine against the Doragon. This is especially apparent in high speed dogfighting.

If I'm shooting a Doragon, I can lead my target and the missles connect. If I'm shooting a Talon, I HAVE to wait for the gunship to be inline with my missles, otherwise they seem to "bug out" right when they reach the hitbox of the Talon.

Very annoying, especially because I prefer the Doragon's handling and its smaller profile when flying close to obstacles.

I agree with carbonfire... it's definately a hitbox issue... just like with the J10s on BF2. I just prey the actually FIX this one... it can be very frustrating when you should be owning the other pilot, but instead he just flys around like your not even shooting at him, then turns around and blows you up. If it's the other way around, I kick thier butts in the same situation everytime.

Spl1nter

01-24-2007, 03:01 AM

I agree with carbonfire... it's definately a hitbox issue... just like with the J10s on BF2. I just prey the actually FIX this one... it can be very frustrating when you should be owning the other pilot, but instead he just flys around like your not even shooting at him, then turns around and blows you up. If it's the other way around, I kick thier butts in the same situation everytime.

And the reason is the engines. Yes the engines. The way they are set up and the exhaust comes out causes for the missiles to go downwards.

Reason it doesnt happen on the pac gunship is because the jet plume is smaller and the jets are attached right on to the gunship. While the EU gunship the jets move and that changes the angle of the jet plume to move.

So if you have ever fired the missiles you will see that they curve down at the last second. At a close up they curve towards the end of the jet plume on the talon.

[DICE]CKMC

01-24-2007, 09:01 AM

The missiles track the ships themselves and not the exhaust.

To follow up on the question posted earlier. The hit boxes on the EU ship are slightly wider due to the engine placement.

Kraxis

01-24-2007, 12:52 PM

CKMC;242278']The missiles track the ships themselves and not the exhaust.

To follow up on the question posted earlier. The hit boxes on the EU ship are slightly wider due to the engine placement.

Aha... so is it becasue of the wider hitboxes then? For one thing is certain, something is not right, and we, the players, apparently don't know what it is. But we all agree the Doragon is having troubles shooting down the Talon (Talon vs Talon is also very tough).

[DICE]CKMC

01-24-2007, 01:24 PM

So one thing we have noticed (but are unable to figure out) can be seen when in a walker. Simply stand and fire over and over (as quickly as the cool down allows). Notice that in online games every once in awhile a missle will take a 90 degree turn for no reason.

We look into this whenever we have time but, as I said, currently are not sure why the missiles decide that there is something terribly interesting 90 degrees 'that way'.

Myr4n and I jumped into a lan game to see what sort of differences in a 'prime' environment could be seen. Really was the exact same.

The hit box difference is very very slight.

Sneaky Assassin

01-24-2007, 01:30 PM

Kraxis

01-24-2007, 01:38 PM

Hm... That doesn't sound too good.:(
But at least you are trying.

DogFish

01-24-2007, 02:52 PM

Ive posted before in regards to this,I have over 9000 kills in the gunships so Ive put my time in....I can generally take down the EU gunship Id say 98% of the time with the doragon,it is alot more work than using the Talon vs Doragon.You have to really set up your shot and ofcourse not allow yourself to be vulnearble to the talon.Now in the hands of someone like FASTX or other top 10 pilots it comes down to who has the talon,but then again we do still kill each other with doragon on occassion....but that generally involes timing and luck.

THE MAIN REASON is that the shields DO NOT WORK as well on the doragon so they can chip away at you until your dead,the missles from the Talon connect alot better especially while on someones six,but if you had 100% working shields then this is avoidable so then it comes down to choosing your attack vs. the talon...My advice is to make sure you down the Talon before moving on to other targets,select your shots well and dont give your self away until the shot is ready,like at hover etc..You have to "pounce" them like you would in a ww2 flight sim,then know about how long you have until it re-spawns(titan mode).

Anyways if there was a way to make the shields larger to where they work correctly, I think the gunship would have a better survivial rate.

SAWWS penetrate shields 50% of the time with at least 1 getting though the shields for 50% damage(sometimes both get through the shields and your dead,I think this has to do with range,upclose they always get through)

Titan Guns penetrate the shields to 62% damage.

First round Talon attack one missle gets in if shields just activate in time bringing you to 85% damage,depending on the angle I often get down between 25-40% damage vs. the Talon with shields activated and up.

Now the Talon also gets hit through the shields by the doragon but not nearly as bad or as frequent(probably due to the missles going around it),its a given your taking hits with shields up while flying the doragon.

Edit:From playing on the Merlin Cat servers a bunch I have plenty of BR footage and can surely find manyif not all the flaws Ive listed,if it helps I could go trough it.

Spl1nter

01-24-2007, 08:32 PM

CKMC;242438']So one thing we have noticed (but are unable to figure out) can be seen when in a walker. Simply stand and fire over and over (as quickly as the cool down allows). Notice that in online games every once in awhile a missle will take a 90 degree turn for no reason.

We look into this whenever we have time but, as I said, currently are not sure why the missiles decide that there is something terribly interesting 90 degrees 'that way'.

Myr4n and I jumped into a lan game to see what sort of differences in a 'prime' environment could be seen. Really was the exact same.

The hit box difference is very very slight.\

The only time I saw something that totally convinced the missile to turn a away from a gunship in a 90 degree turn was when I fired and there was a uav about 50 to 100m off in the distance and they aimed for that even though i was directly on the enemy gunship.

This is pretty confusing.

And if it is a walker problem also then why does it almost never happen to the pac gunship???

FireSoul667

01-25-2007, 12:59 AM

Yay for DICE :D

Boo for EA

WarGimp

01-25-2007, 02:06 AM

I mentioned a possible fix for this sort of thing back in the BF2 days...

It might be easiest to make the missile work more like real Air to Air missiles, Ie give 'em proximity fuses. Real air to air missiles are like flying claymores. They generally don't rely on impact to detonate. Instead, they get within a certain distance of the target then detonate, showering the target with shrapnel.

For game purposes, it would be more simple to make a bit of a fuge. You don't want to give the missiles a fixed larger blast radius because that could harm their dynamic against infantry.
If the missile goes into "tracking" mode, give 'em a larger blast radius and make 'em detonate when they're within a fixed distance from the target. If they don't go into tracking mode, treat them as they are now.
This even makes a certain amount of realistic sense. If these missiles were to plow directly into something, the shaped charge would blow directly into the target reducing it's area of effect greatly. If it self detonates, the area of effect would be a lot larger because it would be spraying it's payload out in a cone shaped blast pattern.

I don't know how much it would take to implement a proximity fuse for missiles, but it seems like the base code should already exist in the engine 'cause APMs have prox fuses.

While this solution wouldn't actually solve anything, I'd be willing to bet that it would cause an "apparent" fix.

Edit: As to why this would help things out, it would increase the chances of missiles that would have passed through the target would actually detonate and cause damage. It would also allow the missile tracking AI to be a little less critical because all it would have to do is get close to the target.

Kraxis

01-25-2007, 01:11 PM

That sounds like a viable solution... Flying APMs.;)

Technically they would not harm infantry since the rockets would go into the ground hitting nothing with their spray, only the limited splash.

If a pilot was good enoughto angle the rockets so the spray would become a factor agiants infantry, then kudos to him for thinking outside the box. It wouldn't be easy and it would bring him terribly low to the ground.

So there would be a penalty for trying it... Weakness to getting 'ambushed'.

ThePhoniex

01-25-2007, 06:05 PM

CKMC;242438']So one thing we have noticed (but are unable to figure out) can be seen when in a walker. Simply stand and fire over and over (as quickly as the cool down allows). Notice that in online games every once in awhile a missle will take a 90 degree turn for no reason.

We look into this whenever we have time but, as I said, currently are not sure why the missiles decide that there is something terribly interesting 90 degrees 'that way'.

Myr4n and I jumped into a lan game to see what sort of differences in a 'prime' environment could be seen. Really was the exact same.

The hit box difference is very very slight.

thankyou for your time ckmc... i know the missles will never be fixed.. but at least i also know now that DICE SEES the problem. If they choose not to fix it, whatevever. But someone knows a problem exisists.

Ok stupid question, if missle track hitboxes and not engine hitboxes specifically, then why do they home in on the lower rear of a gunship? Wouldn't they just home in on the closest hitbox then, and we would not have any of these problems?