EU Tank needs a buff or tweak or PAC tank needs a down-tweak?

[Biotech2142]

Maybe is just me but I find EU tank (A-8 Tiger) inferior in overall terms compared PAC tank (Type 32 Nekomata) for most situations due several reasons:

1. Slower rate of fire
2. Mobility issues while trying to move from a still position on non-flat terrains
3. Size (easy to hit with anything from everywhere)
4. Takes too much terrain damage
5. Slow speed uphill with bad traction at concrete surfaces (Ej. Suez map)
6. Some weak points badly located (combine with reason 3)


The only plus I can give it is:

+ Stability in bad terrains which are countered by reasons 2 to 4 and 6.

+ Rotary main cannon.


In my experience, Type 32 Nekomata (PAC tank) beats EU tanks with ease and can give the EU walker a good scare. Not only that, its faster rate of fire and VERY GOOD mobility without worrying in taking terrain damage can make it a serious threat against every single grounded thing when handled by a good driver. It also can go uphill better than any other vehicle in the game (except walker) and can go down hill nearly as fast as an APC.


People, what do you think? EU tank needs a buff or PAC's a down-tweak?

[Firestorm]

That's the way the hover tank was designed.

[Biotech2142]

Yeah, but they focused too much in the hover tank.

I was in the beta and the EU tank was too weak while many complained about PAC one was overpowered.

The main issue is:

Nekomata = You see ppl organizing defenses or hiding desperately.

Tiger = Some engineer, Nekomata, recon or orbital strike takes care of it soon.

[The_Eliminator]

They are fine the way they are.

[Vikaman]

TBH, I find the Nekomata too mobile to actually cause much damage, or hinder an attack, the day I got my armour service ribbon, 30 kills in the Tiger, I took down 11 Nekomatas (Not straight, but 11 kills, the highest streak probably being 4, before I pulled out for repairs).

The Nekomata is not stable, the recoil can get annoying. The rear armour of the hover tank is also easier to be hit. The tiger is more of a tactical tank, placement and moving in and out, while the turret is at 90 degrees. Whereas the Hover tank is more of a get in there and cause some damage, the tiger does definately have the stopping power compared to the nekomata, its only the mobility thats seems the more... significant advantage.

[Namakan]

EU tank and PAC tank are for different kinds of attacks

its balanced

[Biotech2142]

Man...I should meet all you in my Nekomata. I might learn how to use the EU tank properly.

I was thinking that hover tank is better handled and/or comprehended by those who are into gunships or used the bird in BF2:AF.....almost the same stuff...

[Vikaman]

^ Once again, just like everything else in the game, its very situational.

[SonicPixel]

I spend a lot of my time in tanks and walkers and I think that they are pretty evenly balanced with rock+paper+scissors weaknesses and strengths.

I prefer the Nekomata because of its maneuverability, but the Tiger does more damage and is a better indirect fire platform. The Nekomata will own the Tiger when used in pairs and kept on the move, but a Tiger paired with an APC or walker is a force to be feared.

I "fly" my Nekomata like a very heavy gunship...

[Bardo]

i might be one of the only people who prefer the tiger.... i just can't steer/aim the nekomata worth a damn. probably from lack of practice/experience.

[Erhardt]

Nope, I don't like drive the Neko either. I can do it when pressed, but I'm WAY more comfortable with how the Tiger handles. If I see one of each parked next to each other, and the Tiger is down to 50% health, I'll still take the Tiger.

[Thy-Tormentor]

Tiger's gunner position could use the buff. That MG needs a zoom.

[winsrp]

Soft spot of the Tiger is smaller than the Nekomata is, to hit a Tiget in its a$$ takes a nice strait shot, but to hit a Nekomata, you just shoot ,and preatty much anywhere you hit it (behind of the tank), will take down, or leave it flamming... and on Larger fields, the Tiget has a better cammo, while those green glowing hover propels really let know where you are, even from far away, excep in suez where is all like orange looking.

And by the way, im preatty good at both tanks, with the Nekomata you have a higher chance of survival at close range, since you can move around the other tank and hit it on the a$$, but the tiger seems to have more stability to shoot while moving, bumpy terain makes the Nekomata suck really bad, so long range figths are for the Tiger.

[Kraxis]

I agree that the Tiger holds an edge on ranged fights. While the Neko might be able to strafe and be a tough target to hit at range the Tiger 'just' need to predict whenever the Neko will shoot and fire then. The Neko's instability causes a need to stand quite still when trying to get ranged shots. So the Tiger will almost always be able to determine the Neko is about to fire.
And while driving a Neko in a fight most people tend to either stand still (bad option) or strafe around. If they strafe around without much thought on the matter they bump into stuff, which can be a major problem for the aim. Who hasn't strafed into somethign just as you were about to put that one shot into the weak rear or side of the Tiger? Even experienced drivers suffer from this.
The turret also revolves pretty fast so the Tiger is better at scanning area than the Neko, thus better at capping flags. This also means the Neko will always look the direction it is presented to look at on the minimap. The tigerdriver might however have turned his turret to the rear just as you pop up to shoot your Pilum... Not pretty... Personal experience.

But when the Nekodrivers get good they get better at knowing their surroundings, getting less of a tunnelvision. Then they are able to fire on the move (strafing), and then the Tiger is in trouble. If it has presented it's flank to get 'fast' maneuvering back and forth it is open for a rush, if it has presented the front it won't be able to evade the shots. That is not good. Good Tigerdrivers might not get killed, but they will have to rely on superior gunnery to defeat the Neko, and superior gunenry would be even better with the Neko...

The Neko is as mentioned a lot smaller, and while it's rear it higher, the Tiger's rear is much wider. And we all know the Pilum has a tendency to shoot to the side rather than over or below the target... Or which is harder to hit from hit up, a thin or a wide target.
The Tiger is also a good deal slower than the Neko, even more so if the Neko applies the strafemove (turning to 45 degrees to the direction intended and then applying forward and strafe to the side the direction is at). Further the Neko doesn't take much of a speedhit when going over ramps, the Tiger will practically get stopped dead in it's tracks. Try them at the little ramp to get onto the Suez bridge, it is pretty nasty in difference.

And in the open the Tiger is of course going to get a facefull of circlestrafe from the Neko, and it's own only chance is to bullrush the Neko and hope to hit the flank and thus pin it in place. But any experienced Nekodriver shouldn't ever allow this.

Finally the rear of the Tiger's turret is also a OHK area... So the Tiger is hardly safe whatever it does. And the OHK area reaches around onto the sides of the turret a fair bit, making it deadly.

While both tanks suffer 50% if hit in the trackarea, the Tiger has full contact with the ground there, the Neko can actually be missed by the shot going under the hoverpads. That alse applies to flankshots.

And finally the Tiger has it's gun placed on the side, while the Neko has it's placed nicely below it's sights. You can actually hide on one side of the visionarea of the Tiger due to the gun. Not that you will remain hidden, but it can be enough to give you that little edge to get first shot in, or get close enough to plant the RDX you want.

I suggest you look at this little movie. I was unpleasantly surprised at how much faster the Neko is, especially going over the ramp to the bridge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O56GUMZ4oAs

[Biotech2142]

I just saw that movie and that is how I move mostly. I just forgot to add that.


There are some other advanced maneuvers with Nekomata that I found irrelevant to add...but here I go.

Nekomata 4 hits - Related to point #1 in first post
Be engineer with pillum. Meet any Tiger and strafe or just move in a way he misses from far. Once you get close wait for him to shoot, once he did, fire your tank, get down and fire pillum, get in tank put your shields up and fire again and ram to deplete the last bit if he survives or to roadkill bailing driver. While it sounds a lot to do, you can do all with before he fires another shell.

Advanced evasive maneuvers
Strafe shooting, circle of death, going backwards while strafing and shooting, dropping on a cliff as escaping route (no terrain damage) then sneak behind.

Keep in mind that these maneuvers make Nekomata hard to hit even by walkers or the slow firing Tiger. Sometimes I can even dodge Mitchell/Sudnik shots.

About sneaky recons or infantry, 5.1 headset makes me hear surroundings. If I hear steps, I look on minimap and if no blue dot is near, I just move the Neko over the sound direction just to see a roadkill registered.

Anyways, I must meet more experimented Tiger users to see what I am doing wrong on it.

[193d DCAT1]

Armor to Armor, the Neko has the advantage. The Tiger is a much better anti-infantry weapon, it can be parked up on a hill to rain death down on a silo - you can't easily do this in a Neko. The swivel turret also makes it easiet to track running infantry. I also think the Tiger is a better anti-gunship weapon the turret swivel helps for fine adjustments and being able to park it on a hill can give you that little elevation you need. There is nothing more satisfying than hitting the nose of a gunship with the main gun of a tank!

[Biotech2142]

Tiger as anti-infantry on a hill could be seriously effective if:

2. Mobility issues while trying to move from a still position on non-flat terrains
3. Size (easy to hit with anything from everywhere)
4. Takes too much terrain damage

A single engineer can take it down from far.


As anti-gunship, it is more effective than Nekomata but:

3. Size (easy to hit with anything from everywhere)

I can kill it with extreme ease in a gunship, believe me. Nekomata can be a pain to score the 10 missiles or the TVGM sometimes.

[.reZ- ViolatorX]

Yeah the hovertank is a lot better, you can defeat a tiger with ease just by spinning behind it and taking it out with one shot, I went 34-0 in one, and took out, 12 tiger tanks in the process... Tank v tank its the hovertank no contest..

Id say the only plus the tiger has is the weakspot on the back is harder to hit than the hovertanks rather large weaksection, but an experiened hovertank user can spin around before this happens...

Though I think they compensated by EU having a better walker... I still think they set the air vehicles to the wrong factions as it doesnt match the color sceme..

If anything give the EU tank anti air missiles, or a stealth countermeasure... that would be compensation...

[Kraxis]

If the Gunships are wrong then the Transports are wrong too... They are obviously build by the same firm or designed by the same man. Just look at the Shepherd and the Talon's engines.

[Biotech2142]

If anything give the EU tank anti air missiles

OMG NOOOOOO!!!!

PAC gunship has enough disadvantages. Giving AA to Tiger will make EU the owners of the skies.

[SgaragagghU]

I prefer the Tiger because it's more precise:laugh:

[.reZ- ViolatorX]

If the Gunships are wrong then the Transports are wrong too... They are obviously build by the same firm or designed by the same man. Just look at the Shepherd and the Talon's engines.

I forgot about them... :rolleyes: I'll rephrase my previous comment,

Unless both armies did a paint job like that deliberately, I sometimes have to think for a sec when seeing a gunship attacking...

[SonicPixel]

The EU transport used to be the PAC transport in the beta... I think they switched all the aircraft from the original plan. (or was it the other way?)

You every notice how there are subtle mis-coloring issues? There were numerous goofs where the PAC was orange and EU green, PAC shields were blue and EU red, etc.

I'm a designer and these things happen all the time.

Back to the armor:

I do not feel that the Neko is superior to the Tiger. I like to drive the Neko more, but in the hands of an experienced operator, the Tiger can really shine! I've driven both in tournament-style warfare and think of them as two sides of the same coin. One side is nimble and awkward the other side powerful and conventional. The Tiger excels at gunnery; the Nekomata excels in its movement.

To me, this is the same as the Voss vs. Baur debate. Will there ever be a definitive answer on which is better? No, because the difference is experiential and it is very difficult to quantify an experience. The Baur "feels good" to me like the Nekomata. The Voss is a great performer like the Tiger.

I feel it might take a little more skill to operate a Nekomata to the same level as a Tiger just as I feel the Baur takes a little bit more skill to fire effectively as the Voss. IMO.

[TheLeper]

Ive taken down 3 gunships in a row with the neko without damage, the side to side movement with a fast spin around is what makes this tank effective although that being said the turret movement and damage of the tiger is what makes that effective. Both have benefits and if gunship pilots dont solo and actually do the job of taking out armor there would be no arguing about what tank is better, just requests for emp off of the machine gun turrets which would be nice :D.

[DrJambo]

If you're looking for ease of use and basic tanking then the Tiger is maybe your tank of choice. If, however, you can master the more difficult to control hovertank then it is by far the better tank overall. Only maybe at longer ranges where aim has to be good might the more stable Tiger have a slight advantage. Like Kraxis said above, little bumps can make aiming at long range more tricky in the hovertank.

[Toxitron]

I prefer the good ole German design of the formidable tiger especially at range and in city block fighting. The Neko has to turn around and expose its rear to AA weapons while the tiger can roll in and rotate at will.

[Drproctor]

I prefer the tiger, the turret feature makes up for it's downfalls. The PAC tank is good for assault but you have to swing the entire tank around if your target moves, which they will.

[Lunien]

It comes down to what you're using the tank for. If long range pounding, you can't beat the tiger for stability, the neko moves too much after each shot to effectively line up every shot. If getting in close and in tight spaces, the neko can't be beat either. Use what you need in your given situation.

[Ezekiel]

i might be one of the only people who prefer the tiger.... i just can't steer/aim the nekomata worth a damn. probably from lack of practice/experience.

I'm with you mate.

Power to the Tiger lol

[stockypotty2]

the teams have to have different strengths and weaknesses, and players have to play to these. for instance i feel that the eu walker is better at killing infantry than the pac one. not really sure why just is in my opinion

[StarkWolf]

the teams have to have different strengths and weaknesses, and players have to play to these. for instance i feel that the eu walker is better at killing infantry than the pac one. not really sure why just is in my opinion

Yes I agree with you on this topic. The PAC have developed hover technology to equip their troops. So if you are playing PAC you should modify your playing style to mimic the technology you have available to you. Basically its more about agility with the PAC vehicles and more about brute force with the EU stuff.

[SonicPixel]

Neko tip: when bombarding with the main gun, use thrust to stabilize your zoomed view. I stablize the tank by using small amounts of power spread out over the left and right side by using left (A) and right (D) together. Some shots require using forward (W) and reverse (S) simulaneously. Try it out; master it for longrange gunnery.

Went 22/3 this morning lobbing shells at silo 2 at Suez from the desert between silo 1 and silo 5 and taking possession of the bridge adjacent to silo 2. That's my bridge, buddy.

[Rick Astley]

I'm experienced with the two tanks and saw that the Neko has a clear advantage going 1 on 1.

Still i have to see a Neko standing on a hill shooting whatever it sees, i have seen numberous of Tigers standing on a hill near silo 2 in Minsk tank-sniping whatever it could see.

The Neko can go into a battle with the enemy and get out undamaged, if the driver is experienced. The Tiger is more of the supporting role of the EU troops and also, when wanted, drive into the heat of battle with infantry support.

Like the Goliath, the EU counts on support and not hit and run tactics. But more of the waiting, wating, waiting and strike when the enemy is scattered.

Still the Tiger doesn't need any tweaks and so doesn't the Neko needs one, just live with the rock-paper-scissors balance.

[Biotech2142]

Still I feel Tiger does not last long in battle.

The central idea is that Neko is much better overall and can do most Tiger roles if you know how to control it. You can play ranged, close, kill infantry and vehicles, last longer to kill more, making it a serious menace.

I know tiger advantages, but how long you can last in a hill or in flat ground? I mean playing against good players. When the shells rain from a hill, 30 seconds later the AV impacts will come, you might spot the engineer but if you miss, you are dead. Even if you kill him, you have been spotted, then when you try to escape for repairs, every point from 1 to 6 will ruin your survival chances.

Tiger is way easy to kill no matter where you are located unlike Nekomata.

Hitting Tiger tracks with Sudnik/Mitchell is a breeze while he is almost stuck due mobility issues on non-flat surfaces.

[Erhardt]

I've driven both in tournament-style warfare and think of them as two sides of the same coin. One side is nimble and awkward the other side powerful and conventional. The Tiger excels at gunnery; the Nekomata excels in its movement.
Wait... what? Nimble and awkward? Isn't that like saying "she's beautiful and gruesome!" :confused:

I get your meaning, think (the Neko is a more maneuverable tank), but that just makes me do a double-take, heh heh.

To me, this is the same as the Voss vs. Baur debate. Will there ever be a definitive answer on which is better? No, because the difference is experiential and it is very difficult to quantify an experience. The Baur "feels good" to me like the Nekomata. The Voss is a great performer like the Tiger.

I feel it might take a little more skill to operate a Nekomata to the same level as a Tiger just as I feel the Baur takes a little bit more skill to fire effectively as the Voss. IMO.
Fully agreed on all points there. :salute:

[SonicPixel]

:nod: I stumbled over "nimble and awkward" when I reread it, too. Perhaps I should have said, "nimble, yet awkward" to have it make more sense.

[Bardo]

spent my first real night trying to use tanks because of this thread.

using the tiger... i sniped the crap out of pac going for a 20-2 round (2 kills while gunning in the gunship). anywho, with the tiger i was able to snipe the stink out of walkers and neko's while being extremely far away.

the next round... i tried with the neko.... and couldn't hold the damn thing steady enough to get any accurate shots at distance.

i'd say the tiger is best for us tank beginners.... and the niko would be best when used by advanced tankers. i'm in the beginners cat when its comes to tanks.

[tagging daggers]

i think their both even.tiger has more dammage and the turrent and the pac has nekomata for moving and turning

[Kraxis]

i think their both even.tiger has more dammage and the turrent and the pac has nekomata for moving and turning

They do absolutely the same damage and have the same strength of hull.

But yes, the Tiger is for the conventional player, or the inexperienced player.

Personally I treat the Neko as an armoured Pilum with splash. I constantly run from cover to cover if I can, setting up ambushes or flanking maneuvers. I hate going into a head on fight, as I'm not the best shot around. I tend to make snapshots or go extreme with aiming (aiming for the tracks at long range ect ect). So obviously I'm at my best when I can surprise the enemy.

One of the best times was when I hid on a small hill on Minsk and instantly took out two tanks going past me (oblivious to my presence). Another time I hunted an armoured column going up the main road at Shuhia Taiba, two APCs and a tank.

[Zarious]

Ya the tiger is a pretty easy kill for engies. I've gotten pretty good at killing them with one shot from the front, even when the turret is facing me, as long as I have even a slight amount of elevation. Tigers are pretty much only good for shelling silos, but they're damn good at that.

[Biotech2142]

Nekomata is one of those vehicles that has a learning curve.

Over the time will happen like early times with support class LMG: ppl screamed "IT IS BALANCED!!!". Months later they started to whine because support was better than assault class for assaulting.

Since Neko is an "expert" tank, I encourage everyone to learn using Nekomata above your current skills. Go single player and practice shooting while circling the enemy or strafing and learn to move around terrains for advantage points or escaping/sneaking points, close or ranged.

Once you get used to its movement, accuracy while you are moving unstable it will come naturally over the time (learning curve, remember?). When your skills are on that level, You will find Tiger "not good as before".

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I cant be bothered with the Nekomata, it's instability and finicky handling do my head in. With the Tiger you get great stability and I tend to use it as a ranged weapon rather than trying to charge in and crack a peanut with a sledgehammer. I stand off and blast from a distance, whereas the Neko has speed to protect it at the expense of armour and accuracy. I like armour and accuracy.

[Kraxis]

I say again... The Nekomata nd the Tiger have the same armour!
You get nothing in terms of protection with the Tiger that you don't get with the Nekomata.
The two guns are equally powerful and if standing still the Nekomata is just as accurate.

I agree with Bio, go learn using the Neko in singleplayer and you will soon begin to understand why some of us prefer it so much.

[193d DCAT1]

Awesome spot for a Tiger on the hill:

Minsk with no titan movement
Hill between Silos 1 & 3 south of the road, overlooking the enemy-held silo 1.
A buddy to protect your flank.
Anyone in the bunker with the AA gun is yours for the killing.
Any veheclie that leaves the spawn point is vulnerable to you ( it helps to roll a few motion mines down the hill as a defensive measure).
If you can get a commander to drop a supply crate, you are nearly invincible.

[Biotech2142]

Awesome spot for a Tiger on the hill:

Minsk with no titan movement
Hill between Silos 1 & 3 south of the road, overlooking the enemy-held silo 1.
A buddy to protect your flank.
Anyone in the bunker with the AA gun is yours for the killing.
Any veheclie that leaves the spawn point is vulnerable to you ( it helps to roll a few motion mines down the hill as a defensive measure).
If you can get a commander to drop a supply crate, you are nearly invincible.

1. You said you need certain factors to make it effective

2. I can take you down with ease as engineer with Sudnik or at least make you fall back

3. I can kill you with Nekomata anyway

[193d DCAT1]

Biotech, you really need to lighten up. Most people have agreed that the Tiger is better at shelling silos and I am giving an example of one such spot. I said it is an awesome spot, not a perfect, super-duper, unbeatable God-like one. Most things in the game are situational. I have been in the situation I described above several times and have found that it is a good one to do some serious killing. Yes, I can be killed there, yes I have to back off and repair, but so what? I am killing a lot of enemies and keeping others occupied.

A Neko or even a walker would not be as effective in that particular spot (an APC might be though).

So if any of you should find yourself in a Tiger on Minsk when the enemy holds only silo 1, drive up on the hill, get a crate dropped on you and have at it!

If I had a choice between a Neko and a Tiger, I would choose the Neko if I am hunting armor, but the Tiger if I am hunting infantry or air vehicles.

[Deesies]

It's fine.

ps. The problem in the beta was that the tiger constantly lost health when moving forward.

[Biotech2142]

Hmmm....oh well...

EU best vehicles are Talon and Walker while PAC's are Nekomata and its other vehicles got thinner dimensions giving more chances to avoid hits and even pass through thin corridors.

I guess Neko is mostly for kill whoring while Tiger is for careful approaching long distance supporting (not expecting lots of kills)...yet once a good Neko driver shows up, I can count myself as dead 65% of the time.