Dispelling the myth of the "defensive" titan placement

[Zarious]

Ok I have to post here and rant for a second. I've seen this mentioned a few times, and ran into it last night in a server.

Please, PLEASE let me dispel the myth of the "defensive" Titan placement. Their is no such thing. No REALLY, all you do when you park a titan in the middle of no where is cripple your team's offense. I'm going to lay this out in such a way that hopefully ppl will understand it, and will at least consider my points, even if they don't think I'm right.


Why it's a bad idea

When you park the titan in the middle of nowhere, you put yourself and your team at several dis-advantages. First of all, you can't bring the titan guns to bear (ok that's not necessary a negative), but most importantly, you can't pod anywhere. Usually one silo max. While the enemy is capping every silo with ease because they can be back in seconds, your team is spawning on the deck of their titan (because all the silos are red) and waiting on transports, which some noob is going to jump in and either crash instantly, or fly off before anyone can enter it, then crash it.

Why ppl think it will work, and why it doesn't

In a perfect world, a defensive titan placement seems like a good idea. The strategy behind it usually goes like this. Make the enemy have to go out of it's way to get to you, so that it's easier for the gunships and titan guns to kill the APC's, and so that it's easier for the AA's to shoot down the transports.

Only here's the million dollar secret. It don't work that way. In a pub, you're not going to get that kind of coordination. It only takes one squad leader to get up one beacon, and it's all been for nothing. The enemy is pouring on your titan. You've given your offense a huge dis-advantage, and the only small advantage you gain is easily defeated.

Why you lose, even if it works

Lets just assume for one second (for the sake of argument) that a "defensive" placement actually worked. You're still setting your self up to lose. Think about it. You've allowed the enemy to have a huge offensive advantage during the first half of the game, and they have likely gotten your shields down first. By making it difficult or impossible (remember we're assuming it's working) for the enemy to board your titan, they'll just go back to the ground where they already have a huge advantage. They can still pod to pretty much any silo, and your guys are stuck trying to find a ride off the titan. You still lose, it just takes longer.

Lastly, who died and made this guy the god of strategy

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a defensive titan placement is an automatic lose button, but your team will have to have a pretty high skill advantage to overcome this dis-advantage. What makes me qualified to say any of this, and why should you listen me at all?
WARNING, GRATUITOUS EGO/E-PEEN STROKING AHEAD
I helped develop the titan strategy for my competition team, Team Apotheosis. We held the #1 spot on the TWL 12 v 12 Titan ladder longer than anyone else has, retiring recently with a 18-1 record. I have over 700 hours in pubbing Titan alone, and have participated in over 40 titan matches and scrims, teh majority of which it was my job to develop and implement the strategy used. /end e-peen stroking

In other words, I don't think I'm the finial word on this (please don't take it as that), but I'm not just some nub shooting off about something he doesn't know about. Anyone care to rebut?

[Wizrdwarts]

:yay:

100% agreed. I had a cmdr who did this in Suez, :rolleyes: really, it's all flat anyways. And it pretty much makes a titan game no fun when you have no silos and the pods are out of range of everything.

[tuco]

who was the team that played in a titan ladder that worked out if you put the titan in a certain place some silos missiles allways miss, and never attacked said silos so they werent as spread out. they allways won, then retired/got booted?

[Wizrdwarts]

I dunno, but not that I think of it, the cmdr was just trying to avoid the silo missiles by moving the titan back. They miss a lot on Suez apparently.

[Catziggy]

This is a thread on the Timeless forum I made about the same thing. It has some screenshots showing exactly what you have listed.

http://www.timelessgaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392

[MohicanGR]

I find it stupid too, especially when in dense-silos maps like Suez and Sidi. However, putting the Titan out of harm's way IS a strategy in some very specific conditions:

1. If the commander really commands, instead of flying around and collecting hours, placing the Titan above the base facilities means that he can usually defend those on his own, even drop down and repair occasionally. In this case, his team is 100% focusing on the silos and he has his resources 100% functional at all times.

2. In maps with narrow passages and strong defense points on the ground, like in Minsk, keeping the Titan at the end of a long "corridor" along these fortified positions can cut down enemy attacks very drastically. Of course, this is true only when you can have 1-2 SAAW or AA people around the Titan and you keep killing any APC parked near by. This may give a "speed" advantage in re-spawning for the defense team.

3. Taking the Titan complete at the edge of the map is completely useless in all cases, since you don't protect any resources on the ground you give your team a hard time to travel into the main battlezone.

All and all, I think the possible advantages are too weak and hard to make use of in non-clan games. Also, a Titan parked over 2+ silos is so devastating for the enemy, they just focus on the other silos (in first half) or forget about silos completely (in the second half) and give the other team easy hitpoints on the enemy Titan. This is why at least half the games are finished by silo hits and not by console/core blast.

[=)BiT(=AutoFodder]

Until the shields are up I move the titan in a place near the other or near silos. Before the shields go down I move it to a place where the other team can't enter our titan easily. This only works if ur team is good and u are on the winning side.

I think that may be the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.

EDIT: That was quoted from the timeless fourms

[Wizrdwarts]

Pre-patch 1.10?

[Biotech2142]

When I was aiming to achieve the WCR, I always moved the titan in a position where the guns could attack/defend the most important silo(s) while we could pod to at least 3 silos.

The best defense is to position the titan where you can deny and slow the enemy in taking the silos: because your shields will be around 50% most of the time when the enemy shields are down.

With this tactic, I had a w/l ratio of 3:1 back then.

[Catziggy]

I think that may be the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life.

EDIT: That was quoted from the timeless fourms

Well certainly not the way I would do it lol.

[kr1kit]

I couldn't agree more, i hate commanders who don't move the titan forward into battle. I usually end up being commander when i play titan because i love putting the titan right into the thick of the battle and being able to attack/defend at least 3 different silo's with the titan guns, at the same time keeping the skies clear of planes.

One thing that does bug the **** outta me though, is when my team is losing, and we have 5-6 guys sitting in the titan guns. All it takes is 1 guy(the commander usually) sitting in the titan to effectively defend the silo's with the titan guns. Having 6 guys sitting in the titan guns only hinders your team's offense, because theres 6 less guys out there capping silo's or infiltrating their titan!

[Zarious]

who was the team that played in a titan ladder that worked out if you put the titan in a certain place some silos missiles allways miss, and never attacked said silos so they werent as spread out. they allways won, then retired/got booted?

That would be us :) and we retired, we weren't kicked. Having silos miss was never against the TWL rules, and alot of teams used it, whether intentional or not. It's actually very difficult to find a spot on Sidi or Suez, anywhere near the center, so that all silos will hit.

Now that we're retired, I'm writing up a huge article on titan match/pub strategy. I'm going to go into intimate detail about how we structured our squads, picked which silos to hold, how we did titan D, ect. It's gonna be a long read, but a worthy read for ppl who like to play titan.

[dontsh000t]

very true.
in pub servers all that happens is:
1. some people try to get apcs/transports to the titan and fail
2. opponent gets bored and takes all the silos under cover of titan AA guns
3. team gets bored of defending an empty titan, everyone goes to the ground
4. 1 enterprising SL puts down a beacon after titan is desreted
5. no silos + people podding down = ftl.

unless BOTH titans were parked on opposite ends of the map. now that would be an interesting game... conquest with two big floating thingies in the sky =D

[TheDesert_Fox]

The best way to counter a defensive titan is to move your own titan over to it and pod on while your shields are most likely still intact.

That way when the enemy transports fly out to regain a silo you kill it with your titan AA before it reaches the silos.

Plus, your people pod on and own.

[Diamond621]

Please, PLEASE let me dispel the myth of the "defensive" Titan placement.

I don't necessarily fully agree with your analysis in all places, but our conclusions are ultimately the same in that the defensive placement is very frequently a poor strategy.

Ultimately, the tactical advantage of the Titan ground guns is simply too extreme from my perspective, and the Commander who willingly relieves his team of this incredibly powerful option deserves to lose the round. This fact trumps any potential advantage to be gained from a defensive placement and also dwarfs all the other reasons NOT to use defensive placement. It's simply an argument ender.

Refusal to use a weapon at your disposal is another weapon in the hands of your enemy.

Thanks for the post - it's about time more Commanders became more thoughtful about Titan placement.

[dontsh000t]

The best way to counter a defensive titan is to move your own titan over to it and pod on while your shields are most likely still intact.

That way when the enemy transports fly out to regain a silo you kill it with your titan AA before it reaches the silos.

Plus, your people pod on and own.

that would be a kind of baserape actually... if you have AA guns stopping the planes and ground guns stopping the vehicles =D

EDIT: oh yeah, pods.

[[-NM-]-SS-]

When I was aiming to achieve the WCR, I always moved the titan in a position where the guns could attack/defend the most important silo(s) while we could pod to at least 3 silos.

The best defense is to position the titan where you can deny and slow the enemy in taking the silos: because your shields will be around 50% most of the time when the enemy shields are down.

With this tactic, I had a w/l ratio of 3:1 back then.

Exactly.

[GrossKopf]

I thought that since all the lag problems that were associated with titan movement, the majority of servers have locked down the titan, as we did on the FLOT server.

[Zarious]

I don't necessarily fully agree with your analysis in all places, but our conclusions are ultimately the same in that the defensive placement is very frequently a poor strategy.

Ultimately, the tactical advantage of the Titan ground guns is simply too extreme from my perspective, and the Commander who willingly relieves his team of this incredibly powerful option deserves to lose the round. This fact trumps any potential advantage to be gained from a defensive placement and also dwarfs all the other reasons NOT to use defensive placement. It's simply an argument ender.

Refusal to use a weapon at your disposal is another weapon in the hands of your enemy.

Thanks for the post - it's about time more Commanders became more thoughtful about Titan placement.

While the titan guns are powerful and quite annoying to the enemy, IMHO the ability to pod into silos is what ultimately gives the advantage to a good titan position. The ability to be at the majority of the silos on the map within 30 seconds or less of dieing is a huge advantage for the team that has good titan placement.

[Catziggy]

I thought that since all the lag problems that were associated with titan movement, the majority of servers have locked down the titan, as we did on the FLOT server.


Whats the average high score of parked no movement titan servers?

Whats the average score of titans 200m apart in the centre of the battlefield.

Nuff said

[TheDesert_Fox]

that would be a kind of baserape actually... if you have AA guns stopping the planes and ground guns stopping the vehicles =D

EDIT: oh yeah, pods.And?

Baseraping noobs who try and be asshats by placing their titan out there to slow down their loss deserve a good baserape.

That way, aircraft get killed by titan AA, and people podding down get owned by the ground facing titan guns.

Just wait for them silos to kill off the titan. Attacking their titan would be suicide as everyone with a brain on that team would be defending it.

[tuco]

That would be us :) and we retired, we weren't kicked.
for a master tactition ur a bit slow? everyone else seem to know i was pointing the finger:laugh:

[Biotech2142]

Suez Canal geography, silos placement and lack of AA is an intended design for movable titans.

When the titans move over that map, the round last long and traveling in air vehicles is very unsafe due the titan pods unlike when you have still titans: gunships and transport of doom will rule and rape.

[Diamond621]

While the titan guns are powerful and quite annoying to the enemy, IMHO the ability to pod into silos is what ultimately gives the advantage to a good titan position. The ability to be at the majority of the silos on the map within 30 seconds or less of dieing is a huge advantage for the team that has good titan placement.

True, but through another way of looking things, there is no need to pod to silos constantly if you can keep them from being lost in the first place. With good Titan gunners, absolutely nothing can hide. Armour, infantry, low-flying aircraft - absolutely nothing can escape the grip of those guns - cover is only marginally effective and ADS only delays the inevitable for an insufficient period of time to get a capture.

This frees up your infantry squads to attack the enemy Titan directly, forcing the enemy into an overdefensive loop and further solidifying your hold on the silo game.

Both are valid advantages to offensive Titan placement though, and you make a good point. Cheers.

Personally, I have always been interested in the various tactical options available for teams after the Titan shields go down in larger-scale games. While this wouldn't really apply to competition play, the split of a team between silo work, defense and offense is frequently a deciding factor, as much or more than Titan placement. Strategies like strong feint attacks to quickly decimate consoles 1 and 2 and then an immediate return to silo work can force the enemy into overdefending their Titan, which makes you able to hold silos for an easy win. Experiments with pure defensive strategies with no direct Titan offense, and offensive strategies like all-out attacks to force the enemy to commit significant manpower to defense at the expense of silos are always interesting to see, and provide varied results depending on the size of the game and the situation.

Coupled with a defensive placement, some of these might actually work well in larger games.

[darkroom0716]

i think its good as long as you have a squad member/leader in one of the guns, just the other day, i had that, and i was at a silo that was guarded by PAC, i just pressed V, and said "i need shells on silo 1", and thus, shells. (far more effective than an orbital strike)
i felt cool when the shells actually came down and killed people lol

[CussCuss]

True, but through another way of looking things, there is no need to pod to silos constantly if you can keep them from being lost in the first place. With good Titan gunners, absolutely nothing can hide. Armour, infantry, low-flying aircraft - absolutely nothing can escape the grip of those guns - cover is only marginally effective and ADS only delays the inevitable for an insufficient period of time to get a capture.

This is why im leaning towards servers with locked titans at the moment, it just kills the gameplay when 3-4 silos can be raped with the ground cannons. They need to be nerfed a bit in this respect.

[Raidyr]

This is why im leaning towards servers with locked titans at the moment, it just kills the gameplay when 3-4 silos can be raped with the ground cannons. They need to be nerfed a bit in this respect.

This can only happen on about half the maps, and even then, they are hardly "locked down".

Not to mention, you know, they are floating fortresses in the sky.

[Tetris L]

I agree 100% that defensive titan placement will never save an otherwise inferior team. You may delay your defeat, but you will not prevent it. Therefore, placing the titan away from the action is generally not a good idea.

But I think that a placement in the very center of the map is not good either. Yes, from here you can pod to all silos, and fire the ground canons towards all silos, but also the enemy can pod onto the titan from all directions, and the ground AA canons can hit you from all directions. And the enemy commander probably moved his titan to the map center too, so the enemy can easily pod over, without even having to use APCs or air transports. This makes it nigh impossible to establish an effective defense outside the cargo bay. You're effectively giving up your first line of defense, which are your ground and AA cannons. In the center of the map you can keep 5+ team members busy / occupied repairing titan guns (which isn't helping your team much, only giving the enemy nice free Titan Destruction Pins), yet they won't be able to prevent the enemy from boarding your titan.

When I command in titan mode I prefer to place my titan such that it is in canon reach of 2 silos, preferable such that 1 of the 2 can be hit by 2 of my ground canons and the other one hit by the other 2. The pods reach further than the canons, so my team can often reach a 3rd silo with pods. With such placement, two skilled titan gunners can usually hold 2 silos under suppressive fire, destroy any approaching APC or gunship, destroy any ground AA and keep the guns in working state. And if an enemy squad leader puts down a beacon on top of my titan I'll personally pod out and destroy it. This way you have an effective first line of defense with only 2 people occupied.

That said, again, if your team is inferior you're going to lose regardless of titan placement. If the enemy titan shield is up much longer than your own the enemy commander will simply move his titan close to your titan to allow his team to pod over, so your first line of defense is void.

This is why im leaning towards servers with locked titans at the moment, it just kills the gameplay when 3-4 silos can be raped with the ground cannons. They need to be nerfed a bit in this respect.
Same here!

I feel that with movable titans half the people on both teams are busy destroying and repairing titan guns, which is giving them cheap and easy points and Titan Destruction/Defense Pins, but not helping the team very much, let alone helping a fun gameplay. Plus, when the titans are so close to eachother that you can easily pod over this takes away the thrill and the challenge of boarding the enemy titan with APCs and air transports.

[Zarious]

Personally, I have always been interested in the various tactical options available for teams after the Titan shields go down in larger-scale games. While this wouldn't really apply to competition play, the split of a team between silo work, defense and offense is frequently a deciding factor, as much or more than Titan placement. Strategies like strong feint attacks to quickly decimate consoles 1 and 2 and then an immediate return to silo work can force the enemy into overdefending their Titan, which makes you able to hold silos for an easy win. Experiments with pure defensive strategies with no direct Titan offense, and offensive strategies like all-out attacks to force the enemy to commit significant manpower to defense at the expense of silos are always interesting to see, and provide varied results depending on the size of the game and the situation.

Coupled with a defensive placement, some of these might actually work well in larger games.

There you go. So few ppl seem to realize the value of a good feint on titan offense. There were times that we won titan matches, and never set a foot on the enemy titan more than once. If we had a good enough silo lead when their shields went down, we would push titan O hard for one run. Throw 6 guys at it and make them play defense. Force them to waste 3-4 guys on defense. Then we would stop, and grind the ground game. In any kind of closely matched game, a 4 man advantage (out of 12) on the ground can be huge. We would have our commander drop every other UAV over the enemy titan, and anytime we caught them trying to sneak a few guys back to the ground, we'd pound their defense and either break into their core, or at least force them back into a defensive position. We would also time a large assault with our own shields going down. Push hard on their titan just as our shields went so they couldn't pour their entire team on O. We used a very player intensive 5 man titan defense that (when our damn D captain didn't get disconnected) was damn near unbreakable, but it cost us on titan O. Fortunately, we had some of the best in the game at breaking titan defenses. I swear to god Darkhaven could break into fort knox if you told him their was a titan console inside.

Anyway back to your other points. All out titan O works only if they get slack on D. You're almost never going to get the titan with a large initial rush in a match, but in a pub, that's the best way to do it. In a match their usually waiting on you when you get there (or it's going to be a really short game). In a pub, alot of ppl take a wait and see attitude to titan D. If a few consoles go down, then they go D. If you push hard in a pub at the start, you can usually at least get 1&2. Once you do, it's easy to nade down 3&4 and breach their core.

Still even with the coordination of match play, the tactical advantages that good titan placement provides your offense, far out weighs any advantage offered by a defensive placement IMHO. Not to mention the fact that by placing the titan near the center you often add missing silos into the mix which completely changes the way your ground tactics work.


When I command in titan mode I prefer to place my titan such that it is in canon reach of 2 silos, preferable such that 1 of the 2 can be hit by 2 of my ground canons and the other one hit by the other 2. The pods reach further than the canons, so my team can often reach a 3rd silo with pods. With such placement, two skilled titan gunners can usually hold 2 silos under suppressive fire, destroy any approaching APC or gunship, destroy any ground AA and keep the guns in working state. And if an enemy squad leader puts down a beacon on top of my titan I'll personally pod out and destroy it. This way you have an effective first line of defense with only 2 people occupied.

That said, again, if your team is inferior you're going to lose regardless of titan placement. If the enemy titan shield is up much longer than your own the enemy commander will simply move his titan close to your titan to allow his team to pod over, so your first line of defense is void.


The way we usually handle a hard to get onto titan is two fold. Either I or one of my team mates will take a transport, and fly it very very high above the enemy titan allowing ppl to pod out that way. With pub gunship pilots being what they are you're very rarely challenged in this, or as a last ditch desperation move, we'll have one of our squad leaders "hole up" in one of the bottom consoles, and act as a spawn point. So once the squad leader does manage to get on, he hides in the console, protected by apms and sentry guns, and acts as a spawn point so that we can literally pour ppl onto the titan (had to do that in a match once).

[SonicPixel]

So much of the lag wasn't just from the titan moving, it was from the stupid guy sitting in the AA gun shooting constantly at nothing. Well "nothing" until he was in range of the other titan, then he generated mass lag by spamming the AA at the shielded enemy titan. :dead:

If you're running your Titan server on a major GSP, you shouldn't have a lag issue with just normal titan movement if you have a moderately sized config. IMO Titan mode is best at 24-30 players with movement enabled.

[Diamond621]

Good points, Zarious. Unfortunately, many of the tactics you describe won't work very well in the unorganised environment of a pub (the feint is really the only one, since it's something many players do naturally when the enemy loses shields), but they are still interesting in theory and in the occasional match I participate in.

Another good point to address is that on servers with movable Titans, assuming a defensive stance with the Titan essentially allows your enemy to move into an offensive posture with it at no tactical cost whatsoever. Normally such a position carries disadvantages - the accessibility from the other Titan and from ground silos, namely, but if you're in that position without the enemy Titan anywhere near, these detriments are removed and the benefits remain.

Honestly, I've always operated on a very simple rule : if, as a Commander, you have allowed the enemy Titan into a position where it can suppress more than 3 silos, then expect to lose 9 out of 10 rounds. My experience with pub Titan is that few teams can compensate for this grievous tactical error by the Commander. Since the only thing that can restrict the movement of the enemy Titan is your own Titan, it's often a matter of necessity to adopt an offensive posture.

I am curious what your thoughts would be as far as placement goes on a massive map such as Tampa. There are actually a handful of positions on that map that are over a large enough portion of water such that APCs are completely unable to be a factor in reaching the Titan - it's too far to the coastline. Does the removal of one transport method change anything in your opinion as far as defensive placement goes?

[Zarious]

I am curious what your thoughts would be as far as placement goes on a massive map such as Tampa. There are actually a handful of positions on that map that are over a large enough portion of water such that APCs are completely unable to be a factor in reaching the Titan - it's too far to the coastline. Does the removal of one transport method change anything in your opinion as far as defensive placement goes?

Unfortunately I have never played Tampa. I would say tho that it probably wouldn't change my position much, but it does add an interesting wrinkle. Theoretically a good gunship pilot could then keep all the enemy off your titan, but there again, you're still having to compensate for an offensive deficit. Now once you get their shields down, you could put more ppl on offense, since you would have to worry less about D, but unless you leave at least 1 or 2 guys behind on your titan, a sneaky squad leader could hurt you quickly.

Might be something to it, especially if you can pod to a silo or 2 "tho I doubt it if you're out of range of an apc". If you could get a silo to miss too... :)

[Diamond621]

Ah...see the thing about Tampa is that it is huge. Freakin, freakin huge. I believe the Titan-to-Titan distance initially is well over a kilometer, maybe even closer to 1.5 klicks.

Theoretically a good gunship pilot could then keep all the enemy off your titan,

Better than that - one or two Titan AA guns could probably keep the enemy off your Titan! It would be interesting to see a round where both Titans are situated in this manner and it is entirely a silo contest the whole way through. Might make for more exciting gameplay.

Might be something to it, especially if you can pod to a silo or 2 "tho I doubt it if you're out of range of an apc". If you could get a silo to miss too... :)

Podding to silos is pretty much out of the question initially, but with good movement you could reach one...maybe two tops. The silos are spread so far apart that it presents a lot of interesting tactical options and renders the Titan guns almost useless for suppressing more than one silo.

Many intriguing rounds to be had on it, I predict.